Generation Z and MICE industry
Mariska: Sometimes I have a feeling that the MICE industry is running behind and we miss opportunities. And I think also now with TikTok so it would be great to see in the future that also destinations, technology partners, suppliers, trade shows, anyone who’s active within the industry, also the event planners, they will also focus more on the next Generation Z.
I think that we’re still missing that, for example if you go to a regular trade show. If IBTM was there now, on a normal way, then the average age I think it would be around 35 or older that you would see in Barcelona. You don’t see many young people normallyon events like these. So I think, one to embrace the next generation and want to feel them welcome. GenZ people approach is different, the way how they work is different. I think it’s very important to be on and at least watch TikTok and other social media platforms where young people are active.
Our guest, Nyomi Rose, talks about the next generation Z and MICE industry. She is very passionate about it. I think there’s also, and not only within our industry, a huge gap between the difference in generations. Nyomi, how do you see that evolving? Because you’ve mentioned a very funny example. You went for a job interview, and you got some standard questions, which I found really embarrassing from the person who did the interviews in the past. I think there’s again, same like TikTok, a lot of misconception and misperceptions about Generation Z.
Nyomi: I’m a young event professional, a lot of people don’t know how young I am. I’m 20 years old, turned 20 in August. I’ve done enough to really build a lot of my learning and development and skills through social media, which has really helped me. And especially when, like you were saying, I went to a job interview, and people usually don’t realise how young I am, and feel, then that I’m not very capable, because of my age, but then they bring me into the interviews, thinking how experienced I am.
You know, there’s still lots of different misconceptions about young people and the MICE industry. And I really just feel like, people need to embrace, meet embracing people. And I feel like it really starts with representation. If you really want to be forward thinking destination or event really bringing a wide audience andputting people on the panel speakers, you need to be open minded.
We are talking a lot about the future of the events industry. There’s no young people on the panel discussions on many events. I will say even more, there’s not a lot of young people who are signing up for the MICE industry trade shows tickets. People have got to realise why is that happening. Because we’re not being included? How do you communicate with Generation Z on social media? I hate to say it, but maybe you are doing boring content?
Mariska: It’s true. I’m a Dutch, so I am allowed to say it. I’m talking now in general. And like I said, it’s not adapted towards your generation, also that we still sense that and also the way how we reach out to you. And like you said, you don’t call and you prefer to speak with a chatbot or perhaps via Instagram chat function or messenger. And but it’s often not used in the regular communication from events and meeting planners.
Trade shows and events fitted to Generation Z
Jaro: Is your generation actually interested in trade shows and events in the MICE industry?
Nyomi: I feel like we can make people interested in anything, if we understand that generation. Sso for example, we have trade shows, if you go for example on TikTok, you can see that there’s a trending hashtag at the moment where people are showing the cars, trips, places, their makeup and so many different other topics. It’s such a variety and there’s trade show that are out discussing different things like that. And so I feel like it’s important that people really understand that we are interested if you make us interested, so instead of using content that is usually used for old, don’t want to say older, but you know from my experience, my experience generation.
Sorry, guys, but my experience generation I feel like they have their different type of content. They’re targeted differently, because that’s what interests them, that’s what brings them and you can’t then use that same type of content and then expecting people to then be interested. You’ve got to think creatively, you know, TikTok is all about inspiration, entertainment and education. It’s all in an authentic wat, where I feel like we can really see a lot of people who are trying to sell stuff.
You know, a lot of companies, for example in the UK, we’ve had a lot of discussion about the supermarkets who all came together for Christmas to share the hashtag, which was stand against racism. But the thing that they did with that is that they didn’t put any actual actionable things behind that campaign, they didn’t really actually engage with anybody, they just expected to put it out there. And for a lot of love to go, their way, and it didn’t necessarily go their way, because it was performative. You can’t expect to put things on them, people just go across and a lot of the younger generation are more analytical, we can really pick things apart.
We’re very good at looking back at the history of these companies finding out who was working in these companies, and really, dig deep into understanding who these people are. And I feel like, when we are creating content, we really got to make sure that it’s not just bare content, if we’re really wanting to bring young people in, really talk to them, offer them opportunities, embrace them into the actual event design, embrace them into the schedule, and go to work where they usually hang out, which is places like TikTok and Instagram, and which is doing a lot of video content.
And I feel like that is how we can make people interested. But like I said, you’ve got to make interesting content the way you actually understand. And like I mentioned at the beginning, if you’re saying, send me an email, and let’s book a session, I can tell you categorically that young people will not email you to be interested. Like we’re saying chat boxes, simple forums, where you don’t really necessarily have to talk to anybody. And that sounds like we’re a generation who don’t want to have human contact where we’re all about that. But we’re all about automation and things being simple, and not having to take the long way so I feel like that has really got to be understood as well.
Less is more
Jaroslaw: You mentioned that you’re overwhelmed by Facebook, right? There are so many features and options on Facebook. Do you look for more simple solutions in consuming content?
Nyomi: Yes, I was just gonna say that I completely agree. In fact, Facebook and a lot of other social media platforms are trying to be everyone and everything at the moment. But things like Facebook, the reason that then I feel that they’re not able to grow, it’s because they’re trying to do two things at once. And also the whole user design is just not appealing. Personally, I find it very confusing, there’s things at the bottom, things at the top and things splash in the middle of the screen, things pop up from the left to the right. And on Facebook nothing is very simple.
Whereas if you look on the TikTok platform interface, it’s got none of this sort of banners at the bottom, the video is actually the background for the whole time. There’s not much advertisement on TikTok (for now). You just got to follow ,like, comment, and share. And you can just swipe. How simple is that. And that’s why a lot of people love TikTok, because its simplicity.
MICE industry and social media in the era of COVID-19
Mariska: There’s a huge potential out there for TikTok and influencer marketing in the MICE industry. How do you see that evolving specifically for our industry, because the meetings and events industry is not so active. And we talked most about diversity inclusion, which is also of course, a hot topic in our industry. And how do you see that? Well, in your ideal world, what are your predictions? Or how do you see TikTok and events industry evolving? Would love to hear your opinion about that.
Nyomi: I feel like before COVID happened there was a lot of interest and MICE event professionals were actually really using social media and actually understanding it. And this was before TikTok the platform that we see it is now. And but the content that you can create on the Tik Tok platform, it’s so crucial just to actually, and that younger generation, because as much as we can say, you know, if we’ve got an event, and it’s for something that might not necessarily target the audience.
The younger audience can still learn from that. And then from those event professionals see behind the scenes we have, that they put together an incredible show, you know, meet industry speakers, that I feel like that the MICE industry is going to have to, it’s just, I feel like it, there’s not two ways about it, I feel like it’s going to have to use TikTok. And the way that the MICE industry is going to be able to do that is by opening the doors to younger people. People who know TikTok to come in and say, ‘Look, let me show you how to use this platform, and let me show you how this can work’.
I feel like that’s how the MICE industry can really start leveraging themselves. But I think it’s really important that when the mass industry just come on conferences, that they’re not creating content or creating advertisements, because like I was saying, TikTok is for Generation Z and the young people have so much content, and so much advertisement shown to everybody and think every action. Everybody can agree that every time you go on to all these other social media apps, or even when you just look at Google Search, you’ve got Facebook ads popping up, you’ve got Google Ads popping up, people trying to sell you stuff. You want to watch a YouTube video, and you’ve got an advertisement.
The importance of data
Mariska: I also like to TikTok because I’m Dutch, very straight to the point and we like very practical, easy to use tools. I want to mention something that you highlight is about data. And I think we need to have another conversation about data because we think we need 30 or 45 minutes to cover that topic. It’s really interesting that you do a research upfront with who you’re going to see and that you can see what kind of content the company even a person that you would speak within the company that you will say okay, over three years ago, he worked for another company which did not perform well or that company had a scandal or a claim or whatever. So it’s very interesting that you searched those data. And I think that’s still a very underestimated value within he MICE industry.
And like the younger generation, you grown up with social media, with the importance of those data and analytics. And I think that our generation is now with the digital world and being forced to be online, we’re now getting used to work with the data and analytics, but it’s still not at the forefront, and especially from meetings and event industry. I think that’s also perhaps one of the reasons why I’m not sure why they’re perhaps scared to use online platforms, or social media platforms like TikTok.
Nyomi: Yeah, and I feel like it’s very interesting, especially with the use of data, I feel like people are saying in the comments as well that a lot of the MICE industry are using traditional methods methods, like print media, emails and banners and things like that. And that sort of data, it can’t necessarily be as predictive, I can’t be as analytical as social media and digital media is, but in terms of TikTok`s algorithm, so there are data analytics, you know, if you create your TikTok account for a professional reasons, you can then see all your analytics and see, really, who’s watching when, when’s the best time to post etc.
But in terms of the general events industry, trying to use data more. I feel like, we’ve really got to make sure that we’re actually empowering our employees first, to really get them to understand the importance of data. So instead of just, putting out surveys, or things like that, we’ve got to be more creative with how we’re going to try and feed that data. And instead of asking simple questions, getting to know those people a lot more and connecting with them, is how you can really create, better data for you to then analyse, but then also using data, after your event to really help you with improvements.
And really just growing, as growning as a company or as an event, it’s really important that you actually look and analyse that data, you really manipulate it to understand why are people acting like this, or why people are interested in this, or that it’s really important that you can then look at that data to recognise there’s not a lot of young people here.
Now, why is this, is it because of these reasons xxx, and it’s important that you then create that data and then share it with people, too many people are keeping data to themselves. And people don’t realise that data is meant to be shared, obviously, with them legally. And but that data is meant to be shared to your community. And if you are sharing data that’s saying, ‘look where we recognise the gap here, like you know, come on community, let’s bring this, like, let’s go this new direction’. That’s what it’s supposed to be used first to help you improve and continually develop, but a lot of people don’t necessarily know how to do that. So that’s where it’s important that we are empowering people to use data, and not for it to be such a thing where it’s oh my gosh, like numbers and numbers, etc. It can be a lot, it can be a lot simpler than a lot of people usually make out to be.
New opportunities
Mariska: I think in general, it has a lot of opportunities. So hopefully now with the push of the younger generation, we’re able to share experiences and to see also how important our industry is. Because that’s actually also what it’s about, and why are so many impact on local economy, because so many suppliers and supply chain is involved in the entire industry. And it’s indeed by bringing people together.
We need to be an example. We need to be that inspiration for others also to follow us. I think sometimes we need to be not saying that leader but sometimes you need to take the lead.
Nyomi: Yeah, the importance that we’re all here to help the MICE industry grow. You know, we really need to make sure that the 2021 plan is to grow the industry and to make sure that we come back even stronger. And the only way we can do that is by bringing more people together. And not excluding different generations, but embracing each other, all of our different thoughts, ideas and experiences. I feel like that’s just so important for 2021. But also, I was gonna say, check out the Word of MICE TikTok Challenge, because we put out some really great advice and on how you can create that content on TiTok, and I believe you have to see change because we will have something coming out in the new year. So if you do want to understand how to Tik Tok, go look through that blog, and you can really sense that your tiktok journey, but I’m always here to help out.
Influencer Marketing on Instagram with Phil Gonzalez
Welcome to the second series of the B2B Influencer Marketing Chat Series. And we are very happy to have you all in and to launch again another interesting series to talk about B2B Influencer Marketing. My name is Mariska Kesteloo. I’m the founder of Word of MICE. And for the second series, we have a new host involved and that is Jaro (Jaroslaw Marciuk).
Jaro: Hello, my name is Jaroslaw Marciuk. So now you may understand why Mariska calls me Jaro. I originally come from Poland and recent five years I lived in the UK, London, and Cambridge. I am in our MICE industry for about 20 years working in hotels, with convention bureaux and also the event industry. On the other hand and I also have experience in Social Media marketing. And that’s how I met our host today – Phil Gonzalez. How many years do we know each other? 10 years?
Phil: Yes, I think I think like 10 years when we started building Instagramers Community.
Mariska: Thank you so much for the introduction. Jaro, nice to have you as our host of the second series of the podcast. Now it is time to tell you more about Phil Gonzalez. Would you like to introduce yourself, Phil?
Who is Phil Gonzalez?
Hello, everybody I am Philippe Gonzalez. I am French but from a Spanish family. So I’m the son of immigrants who went to France in the 70ties. I used to live very close to Holland and Belgium because I studied in the north of France in a business school. I came back to Spain in 2000. I worked in the automotive industry as well. And like Jaro said, I was the last eight years of let’s say, working in a corporate area. I was working for EMC, the producers of “Breaking Bad”, “Mad Men” and “Walking Dead”. I was a digital manager for 24 TV channels in Spain and Latin America. For around 20 years I was also involved in the digital and internet blogs, social networks industry and promoting the series around the world.
The beginnings of Instagram in 2010
In 2010 I was developing my own application for a cooking channel in Spain. It was going very well. And one day a friend of mine told me “Oh, there is an application called Instagram. It’s very, very nice, it’s only one month old”. And I said, let’s try it out. I’m am a creative person, I like to paint and I like to take pictures and photography. When I first saw Instagram I said: “Wow, this app is going to change the world”. Check Phil`s profile on Instagram @philgonzalez.
I was never really fond of Twitter or Foursquare. I didn’t believe in many social networks that were launched. But when I saw Instagram, I had a sudden feeling, it was ground breaking. I was in my bed on a Sunday morning and looking at the Instagram app that was like two months or three months old. Instagram was launched on the 6th of October 2010.
Suddenly people started writing comments on my Instagram feed and asking questions. You know, they were writing – Can I be famous on Instagram? Or Can I be popular on Instagram? I replied and told them there are some rules they should follow. I had experience in marketing and I shared my knowledge of social networks. I was telling them – There are 10 rules you have to follow. And people replied in the comments on Instagram – Wow, it’s very interesting.
In December 2010 I said I have to make a website because people do not understand what Instagram is. For example, they were uploading pictures, and they were not putting any title. I said, OK I’m going to help people to understand the Instagram mobile app, and I started the first blog called instagramers.com. That was the real beginning of everything.
The Evolution of Influencers and Influencer Marketing
Mariska: People started addressing you for tips on how to become an influencer. Can you just share something about that evolution of influencers and influencer marketing?
Phil: It has been really a great period of my life, really. I knew a lot of famous bloggers and Twitter people in Spain. Before Instagram, the name influencer didn’t really exist. We used to say – wow, he is a famous guy from Twitter or this famous blogger, but there was not this name stamped like saying this influencer.
So in the early stage of Instagram, I remember in 2010 and 2011, when you used to have 1,000, 2,000 or 3,000 users, you were an Instagrammer with a lot of followers. And I remember at this stage I knew quite all the influencers, let’s say in the world. You had one guy in Germany Tomas Kay with 70,000 followers, you had one guy in New York. It was quite easy to know all the people that were like more than 50,000 followers. These people used to be promoted by Instagram, they were not famous. They were not photographers, nor celebrities. It was only people promoted by Instagram.
Instagram as an opportunity for creators
What happened to me in 2012? I suddenly entered into the 100 people Instagram List. I was among only 100 people suggested by Instagram to other new users. 100 people, like me, were part of this list on Instagram worldwide, we used to have 2000 or 3000 people following us every single day. Can you imagine? That was like crazy. So these people were the very first influencers. They were not famous, because until 2012 we didn’t have celebrities, musicians, or movie stars on the platform. The first famous person on Instagram was Snoop Dogg, the rapper.
In the beginning, Instagram was really creating these audience monsters, and Instagram was not thinking we are creating the future of influencing. They were just creating stars, unknown people who published cool pictures. Suddenly these people had opportunities.
It was like that, someone was asking me: – Phil, can you come to a party? – Phil, can you come on a trip? I had a lot of friends at this moment that were like, maybe 23-24 years old. And they said, wow, that’s an opportunity. I can maybe spend one year of my life traveling. That was the first step of influencing on Instagram – people who just go on exchange. So you come to our dinner for free, you go to an event of a big company.
And from the side of the company, it was funny. The companies and the agencies at this moment had no idea at all about marketing on Instagram. In the beginning, let’s say the agency called you, and they say – We saw your followers on Instagram. Do you want to come to our place?” That was like, quite strange, because everything was building itself without no strategy, really.
Instagram app as a successful start-up
Mariska: From your perspective was there a strategy behind Instagram? Because I think Instagram wanted it. Was it the purpose from the start, that they wanted to grow that big?
Phil: Probably it was, but it was not really clear. Instagram, when they started, they were only four people working there. And in less than two months, there were 10 employees. In December of 2010, there were already 8 million app users, and they were still only four people. So it was like crazy.
They didn’t have time, they didn’t have a blog. So there were a lot of things they were doing on Instagram. They were just flowing. You know, it was like a real start-up.
Twitter had a feature called Suggested List, so they copied Twitter. Remember that Kevin, the founder of Instagram, was an intern at Twitter. So what he did was a Twitter with pictures. He replicated Twitter, but with more importance to photography. So he said I want a Suggested List for people who are cool on Instagram. But at this moment, Instagram was not thinking that they are going to create the influence of the future.
And now it’s funny, because in 2020 what happens is that Instagram and Facebook say: How can we get money from all these monsters we created? Because we don’t take any commission, any money from all these people. For 10 years they created monsters that today don’t give any money to them. So they are going to try it and they are finding new ways to monetize these people.
Influencers incredible stories on Instagram
Mariska: It’s interesting how a small start-up evolved by creating a community by trial and error and suddenly, then it got acquired by a larger company (Facebook), and then suddenly the investor’s role comes with money and causes different issues.
You also told me, in our previous call that people who didn’t realize the word an influencer suddenly discovered the potential and options of Instagram. Even people like lawyers, fishermen, or farmers. Can you just share a practical example of a person who grew their community because of Instagram and perhaps now has an extra income out of Instagram?
Phil: Yes, well, I have plenty, plenty of examples. I will just show you three from Spain, with whom I am much in contact. For example, I have a friend, she’s a lawyer. Actually, she was a lawyer for a large company. She was doing international contracts and agreements. She also started writing blog posts about food, like a blogger. As a blogger, she was known on the internet, only with her recipes, etc. One day she started publishing photos on Instagram. I recommended her to start her own profile. Now she’s a TV chef for the most important cooking channel in Spain. She left her job as a lawyer. She’s very famous, she wrote her first book, etc.
I also have friends from Catalonia. One has 70,000 followers and another guy from Catalonia with 150,000 followers on Instagram. And these two guys are great case studies because one of them was a fisherman. Okay, he used to go very early in the morning to start to fish. And one day started to share pictures on his Instagram. He decided to leave his profession and he is a photographer.
The third example is a policeman from Tarragona in Spain. He came with me to Iceland, we went to Peru together. They have changed totally their life, like this.
They were not supposed to become influencers and traveling all their life. So there is a kind of people I met at the really beginning of Instagram that we worked with, were like very young, like 22, they didn’t really know what they were going to do with their life. And they suddenly look at Instagram as an opportunity for one or two years. Now most of them still live with big Instagram income.
How to become an Influencer on Instagram
Mariska: We are living now in 2020, where we are of course in totally different times. The industry and the majority of the people who are listening and joining us today are from the meetings and events industry. There’s a lot of opportunities also for our industry to share knowledge and to share those experiences of meetings and events. Do you have any piece of advice or anything that you’d like to share, particularly for Instagram or for people who are not saying that they want to become an influencer or people who share their expertise by sharing their stories on Instagram?
Phil: Yes. Well, first of all, what do I say to people who want to become an influencer? I say forget it. Okay. You don’t have to try to be an influencer. What you need to do on Instagram, and social networks, is enjoying what you do and do what you love. And maybe one day, luck will knock on your door.
But if you wake up every morning saying I want to become an influencer, you are going to start very, very fast. You will be doing a lot of noise, posting a lot, etc. And later you can say I don’t have any results for six months and you will leave it.
Mariska: Because you’re not passionate.
Phil: 99% of my friends who became influencers, were not seeking to be influential. It was just that their destiny cross their life, their talent exploded. So about the influencer industry, what I always say now is that sometimes we suffer a little bit of this weight of influencers, the ones that don’t have any talent. It’s just luck, etc.
So the first thing we have to remind to companies is that influencing is here and it’s really well based. There is a survey that demonstrates that more than 75% of the people believe a friend more than the advertising on TV. That’s definitely the rule you need to do influencer marketing, there is no doubt on this one.
Influencer Marketing on Instagram
There are a lot of companies that would like to start with influencer marketing on Instagram. I think they lost a lot of years to start with it. So there is no doubt we need to do influencer marketing. But the big question now is with whom are we working?
So at this moment, there are unfortunately still a lot of agencies which think like this and sometimes it happens to me. People call me and say – Phil, I want like five influencers with more than 300,000 followers.
And I ask them – That is your brief for the influencer marketing campaign on Instagram? What do you want, is like kilos, you need one kilo or two kilos of Instagramers?
No, what you need is: I want a guy specialized in technology with engagement on his Instagram that, when we do a campaign with him, I can be sure that I will have at least 200, 300 clicks, or 400 clicks on something related to software or to games or whatever.
Case study
I have a simple example of my last book. My Instagram case study. Last week, two big influencers talked about my books on their Instagram accounts. One of them is specialized in technology and he has a good engagement rate with his community. In one single day, I had 200 more followers on my Instagram profile, 100 visits to my Amazon website to buy the book. He was like 200,000 followers on Instagram.
The same day I had a post about my book on Instagram of a lifestyle girl with 600,000 followers. She didn’t brought me any followers at all. No visitors at all. Ok, maybe 10-15 people followed me. Probably her followers were not really interested in buying a book about Instagram, they were more interested in the way she wears.
Mariska: This is about relevance, that person really has a niche. That’s also what I say to encourage people to have a specific niche also within the meetings and event professionals. People have for example a focus on incentives or focus on corporate events. If you have really that niche and you will show also that you have the expertise and knowledge in that niche then people will take rely on you and people will follow you.
Influencer Marketing on LinkedIn
Phil: I want to share with you when we talk about B2B Influencer Marketing. I have been complaining about LinkedIn for many years, because I say LinkedIn is such a big opportunity. When Microsoft bought LinkedIn I thought – Microsoft please do something because the usability of LinkedIn was still very bad compared to Facebook. Usability is the key to the success of the platform. I don’t mean the meaning of the social network, the usability was quite bad.
But they have an opportunity in the future with Direct Messaging, Live Streaming on LinkedIn, and with Stories on LinkedIn. I will share the example. LinkedIn Story can be a blast. As a professional, I want to explain for example an event. It would be better to do storytelling on LinkedIn Stories and Live on LinkedIn than on Instagram. So I have a very good feeling about LinkedIn in the future.
Mariska : I also ask questions within our community, and I also see some feedback from people. They’re using LinkedIn Stories, but I think it’s still evolving and perhaps they’re a bit slower than Instagram. There is a potential out there for LinkedIn to use the stories as optimal as it should be. We will keep following the trends and developments of LinkedIn.
How brands can work with Influencers on Instagram
Jaro: How brands can work with influencers on Instagram, but from a B2B perspective. Do you have an example of that?
Phil: Well, that’s a good point. Most of the time, like I say the agencies are all the brands are thinking in B2C marketing. Sometimes big brands come to me and say: I want to do something with a large number of followers. I’m not interested in this target. I used to work with influencers with the smaller communities like 80,000 – 100,000 and very dedicated to their work.
Okay, so when the company calls me for B2B campaign I say, usually, these people have lower followers numbers. B2B Instagram influencer may have 3,000, 5,000 or 7,000 followers. I tell them you will not find easily an influencer talking about a specific subject in B2B marketing with a huge following on Instagram. I think it’s even better because these people that have like 5,000 or 10,000 may offer lower rates, Also these content creators are very interested when people and brands want to work with them. The only problem is that it’s complicated to find them. You have to really enter the communities talking about the topic and seeing what would be the best content creator or ambassador to promote your product or service.
Mariska: Trade shows and events are not taking place now and we work in a B2B environment. I think still there’s a huge potential for growth in B2B marketing. Do you think so too?
Phil: Of course. I think there is potential but the problem we have right now is that the people think influencer are people you’ve seen on the beach with a cocktail on the island. There’s still a wrong perception of Influencer Marketing on Instagram or other Social Media platforms.
And that is something we will have to fight against and you know that the name influencer has its meaning? A few days ago media said about a group of influencers who were having a party in Marbella without safe distancing during the COVID-19 era. So that’s the bad news. It’s not smart. So that’s something we have to fight against.
Mariska: We’re also fight against wrong perception of inflencers. Instead of a word an influencer we use also content creator. I also like the word industry experts. We want to educate and show positive case studies of influencer marketing campaigns.
You can continue reading our interview with Phil Gonzalez here: The future and trends on Instagram in 2021.
The second season of B2B Chat Series
Welcome to the B2B Influencer Marketing chat series where we talk about B2B influencer marketing in the world of MICE (Meetings, Incentives, Conferences and Events). We speak with people from all around the globe about the role, the meaning, impact and possibilities of B2B influencer marketing. You can listen to us and our guests on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts.
We launch the second season of B2B Influencer Marketing chat series in November 2020. Follow us on Eventbrite and signup for coming chats with influencers, CVB`s representatives and many other interesting guests from the MICE industry and Social Media world.
Sign up for our next episodes of B2B Influencer Marketing Chat Series: World of MICE – events on Eventbrite registration.
How to measure influence on social media the interview with Tim Williams
Welcome to the second edition of the B2B influencer marketing chat series. Today, we have a great guest in our podcast.
Who is Tim Williams
Tim Williams is the CEO of Onalytica, an Influencer Marketing company that provides Influencer Relationship Management software and supporting professional services. Onalytica provides influence marketing software, the company focuses on advocacy. They love to be able to integrate employer advocacy and influencer advocacy for brands. Their mission as a software provider and a vendor in this space is to connect brands with influencer communities. Company loves the development of community around certain topics, they focus on B2B globally.
Have you missed the live episode with Tim?
In case you missed our live session with Tim Williams, listen to our conversation on your favorite podcast channel. We uploaded the whole interview to the following podcast channels:
Do you prefer reading over listening? You can read most of our conversation with Tim Williams below. Enjoy listening and reading.
The current state and future of B2B influencer marketing
Mariska: I’m really happy that we have the ability to speak. We would like to discuss the report The current state and future of B2B influencer marketing, especially from an influencer perspective. Before we dive into the outcome of the report, can you share why have you done this report?
Tim: So we always love carrying out research, it just enables us to build so many relationships within the industry. And you find out so many wonderful things about the state of the industry. We have previously done a state of the industry report for B2B marketing around marketers and communications professionals.
And since Top Rank marketing did a great report a couple of months back on that, we thought well, why don’t we ask the influencers, because the influencers of the marketing gold that brands are leveraging to get their messages out there. And the industry is maturing, as you very well know, there are wonderful successes, there’s also mixed results within the industry as the industry is evolving and maturing.
So part of the success is how brands connect with the influencers, and the influencers have strong opinions about how they should be reached out to, how they want to work with brands, whether their opinion gets listened as part of the brief and how they work on an ongoing basis and the payment, how the payment works and all of the sort of a ministerial and sort of transaction part of the process, like, matter as well.
So we just thought, we can deliver most value by showing brands, what influencers really care about and how they want to show up. Then you’ve got both, the brands and the influencers coming together to achieve what the best results are going forward.
Mariska: It was really interesting also that you really want to focus on influencers part which, I think, is really really important. Also to bring influencer marketing, I would say, to the next level. Can you share three important outcomes and three remarkable outcomes that you said ‘okay, this is, perhaps, something that we already knew, but it confirms. Or something that, really, would surprise you with the outcome of the report.
Influencer marketing as a collaborative process
Tim: Always keep in mind that the ‘always on’ mentality rather than ‘one off’ campaigns, so we, there’s a stat in there that 89% of influencers who work for brands on a retainer basis, deem their campaigns to be very successful. So obviously, the influencers, when brands invest in them on a longer term basis, they give a lot more to brands. And so that was very, it was what we already believed, but it was just really, really strong to come through from the influencer research report.
The other thing that was interesting is the quality of outreach and research, there’s still a lot of brands that are not doing their research, and just treating influencers like promotional mouthpieces, and saying, Can you amplify this piece of content? Or I know you’re influential in this area? Could you share this report? And that’s really something that we’re trying to stamp out as the industry.
So 93% of influencers who think brands do a lot of research, right, that outreach is good, or very good. As a brand, you need to put in the effort to get to know someone before asking them to do a favor or was trying to build a relationship as part of a like a paid engagement. That was really interesting.
The other part was looking at influencer marketing as a collaborative process. So it’s not a brief that brands just hand to the influencers except or not. It’s about helping influencers to shape the brief and relaxing a bit of control as a brand to be able to integrate influencers beliefs, and ideas on how you can create the most inspiring content for your target audience. I think those are the three interesting points.
Mariska: A lot of people see influencers not as humans is it not also about creating a human relationship between the influencer and the brand. Also the mutual respect and mutual interest and expertise? Because I see there is a huge gap between what the brand wants and what the influencer wants. And despite it, we also send out a brief it’s, you see, there’s still a huge gap to bridge between the influencer marketing and the brands. And I think if brands would approach influencers more in a human way if they would work with with employees, I think there is, from my perspective, there is still a lot of work to do.
Tim: I think the the human centered approach goes a long way. And I think the when you’re in big organisations, and you’re in a marketing department, and you have strict targets to hit, and you’re not really, you’re seeing influencers, like a paid media opportunity, then obviously the mindset is wrong. And, and that’s one of the things I think is interesting going to the trends of influencer marketing, that I see that the early adoption phase is over.
I know a lot of people that have influencer marketing, their job title, they have global roles, and you know, they’ve honed their industry and, and their skills extremely well. And they’re working with influencers. But now this approach has become mainstream there a lot of people that have never done this before that it might be 5% of their roles.
And they don’t feel that they have the time to research influencers or to and and maybe the human approach gets lost a bit because they find it very time consuming to manage these influencer relationships. So I think we’re at that tipping point where it becomes a mainstream tactic. And organizations will then recruit differently and job roles in the future, you know marketing director would have influencer marketing maybe as 25% of their remit. So I think it’s just as a result of the evolution of the industry, but I completely agree with you.
Influencer`s audience size is becoming less and less important
Mariska: I hope that B2B influencer marketing will become more mature in the upcoming years. And I would love to have your vision on that. And anything else that you would like to share about the outcome of the report that you have done or even from, also, from your colleagues, because I know also, this is, of course, a team effort that you’ve done. Quite a lot of people have worked on the report. Any other outcomes that you would like to share from from the report?
Tim: First of all, I should say that Alicia Russell (VP for Global Marketing at Onalytica) was behind the influencer research report, assisted by Alistair Wheate (Senior Solutions Strategist at Brandwatch), who helped out with a lot of the influencer relations, and Joe Fields (Head of Influencer Marketing at Onalytica) as well in the team. So all credit to them for getting the report out.
I think the one of the other interesting things is that the influencers, audience size is becoming less and less important. I think a lot of brands have chased the same influencers who have maybe 150-200 thousand followers in the B2B world. And you know, when you have 50 brands chasing after the same 30 people in tech, for example, that bubble is always going to burst. And so I think a lot of the more savvy marketers are looking for people with expertise. And they’re looking for industry experts that don’t call themselves influencers.
So I think that the how we describe influencers is really, really important. We talk about your professional influencers or social media amplifiers as those people that do it for a living, but we also talk about industry experts, industry key opinion leaders, content creators, independent analysts, different type of people that are influential, influential experts, but they’re just not describing themselves as influencers. And I think that’s a really important trend.
Everyone is an influencer
Mariska: Really important the way you say the word influencer because we also have a hate-love relationship with the word influencer, if I can say, but if I don’t mention that word influencer marketing that people don’t understand what I do, so I mentioned it for people to give them a direction, but still the word, industry expert, content creator, thought leader, I think we still have to come up with a name, which resonates with the job that they do. Because influencer, everyone is an influencer, if you have social connections or not. So I think, therefore we need to be careful perhaps even go away from the word influencer marketing and be on a B2B level.
Tim: Exactly I couldn’t agree more, we feel that Onalytica as a technology vendor in the space, we feel we have a responsibility to help that evolution. So we’ve got the persona classification, like a content creator or an independent analyst. But then there’s also the roles they could be an academic researcher, or they could be a data scientist, they could be a developer, they could be an entrepreneur. And then they’ve got location, they’ve got like quantitative data, qualitative data, and that all forms part of a person of who they are.
The category is influencers but we don’t like the word ‘influencer’ by itself. But it’s useful to have a term for the industry that everyone references, we also call an influencer as an internal influencer, it could be an employee, a brand employee. So they’re just people. But they are influential experts for us. So that’s probably our best generic term for all the people that we hold in our database.
Mariska: Yeah, indeed. But I think, like you said, I also feel that it’s a duty and our role and our responsibility to also to get more recognition for influencers in general. And again, together with a human approach to get more awareness for what is actually B2B influencer marketing, because a lot of people and if I speak with clients, it was especially in the beginning, I noticed now that perception of influencers, luckily is changing. But a lot of people don’t see them as humans, they just want to see them as a sort of selling machine. And they don’t always see the long term perspective. Luckily, that has changed also, I think also with a pandemic. But also before I saw a change of perception in general for influencers.
Tim: Exactly. Well, I think it’s testament to some of the work that you do at Word of MICE as well. I mean, you’re very vocal about that and I think there’s a community of B2B influencer marketing practitioners that are helping change this. So I think it’ll take a couple of years. But I think we’re well on the way.
The impact of B2B influencer marketing
Mariska: It’s interesting also to share your vision about the future of B2B influencer marketing and also talking about the impact of B2B influencer marketing. Because, I think, still a lot of people underestimate what you can get out of the campaign on a B2B level. So can you share some insights outside of the report, in general, the impact of B2B influencer marketing, because I think that’s a huge underestimated value part of the campaign.
Tim: From working with lots of global enterprise brands, the results that we see from influencer marketing is, if we look at brand awareness first and then demand generation, as the main two goals, we see up to 30 times awareness and engagement on social content when influencers have generated the content versus brand generated content.
So we see a massive increase in awareness engagement, we also qualitatively see an increase in the quality of content and they inspire conversations, there’s a very different flavor to the content. So that’s on the awareness, engagement front, on the demand generation, if you have a webinar with an external influencer, and we’re seeing up to five times demand generation, so five times generation of leads, for example. Sometimes it’s 50% more, sometimes it’s twice as much, three times, but it’s up to five times that we see with the external influencer voice. So wonderful results. You’re compared to the benchmarks that the brands have. And obviously, there’s lots of factors in determining how successful those particular campaigns are.
New roles for influencers
Mariska: I think still a lot of people underestimate the impact of a B2B influencer marketing campaign and getting them. After you’ve done the report, what is your personal also seeing, of course, the pandemic, which had a huge impact on our personal and professional lives, how is now, have your visions have changed about B2B influencer marketing for the future?
Tim: It’s a good question. From our research, it showed that there was, the influencers are saying that they’ve got the same amount of work, or more. I mean, a few of them who were speaking at lots of events obviously, had to adapt their offering very, very quickly. And that was important. So I know people that have really upskilled themselves on the lighting on the recording on being MC (emcee) at events. And you know, people like Brian Fanzo, for example, have made a business out of like showing their journey and how they’ve adapted and they’ve had to make some big changes.
But overall, the influencer work has increased. I mean, the brands have no physical events, no way in which they can network or drive leads, they have, you know, everything is digital selling. And, you know, this is, I think, just accelerated the trend that we were already seeing. So, our strategy in Onalytica hasn’t changed. I think we’ve just been, I mean, from a personal strategy, we’ve just been working more with tech firms because they were the ones that were trying to capitalize on this opportunity. Whereas maybe some other firms in travel or hospitality or something like that, were really just trying to survive as businesses so they just shut down a lot of spending around advertising and marketing. So I think that they will come back.
But I think in the B2B areas of tech, finance, healthcare, the areas that are really booming and haven’t really seen much, much of a hit in terms of their revenues, it’s been increasing if anything.
New opportunities for influencers in the MICE industry
Mariska: Okay, well interesting to see of course, we coming from the hospitality mixing events industry, we see that the industry of course, has been hugely hit. And 2021 is not looking very bright, unfortunately. Despite that our strategy has slightly changed and we see there’s a huge support and I’m focusing also on social media but despite there is still a demand for B2B influencer marketing because like you said, we are the ones creating the events and you don’t have the possibility to meet, or to have that face to face interactions with your clients. So therefore, I think B2B influencer marketing is a great way to do webinars to do interviews, podcasts, online panel discussions, online events, I mean, or Instagram stories, LinkedIn live, we have so many opportunities to stay in touch with your audience. And that using influencers, I think it’s only a great value. And I think some ways epidemic has pushed forward some companies to think differently than it would have thought before. So I see there is also positive change for the future for B2B.
Tim: I would agree with that. And a lot of the marquee events that didn’t happen or just couldn’t deliver the same results. I think we are seeing virtual content series with influencers being something like a thought leadership plane, which might be across two or three months, where they have 10 different video series with one influencer per video series, or using the same influencer for multiple ones and integrating their subject matter experts internally as a good way of driving the attention and awareness and just creating really good content.
Let`s talk about data and metrics
Mariska: We think that data still plays a huge underestimated role in many, many industries. How do you think that we can improve the role of data? And also in combination with the current situation with the pandemic?
Tim: Data is at the heart of everything that we do. I think it’s a really difficult and challenging area for companies, because marketers and communications professionals really struggle with measurement. And I think there’s a number of different ways to look at this. I think it’s, if we start with the influencers, the influencers need to be able to measure their impact on things that brands care about. So if you have a few posts, and you get 50 likes or 60 likes, then they need to translate that into something that the brand can make a business case for internally. So the influencers need to improve their own measurement. And they also need to do a better job at showing how well they perform compared to their competitors.
Measure the impact of influencers on social media
That could be other influencers in the community that people could choose to work with. So we’re trying to help the influencers, measure their impact on LinkedIn, and Twitter to take two channels, but also tried to have some proxy for offline influence as well, which is really difficult, but there are some solutions there. So I think that’s how the influencers can understand their own value and bring that as their kind of profile showcase or media kit, then there’s having a passion for ensuring that they deliver for the brand.
So once they’ve created the content, if that’s what the brief is to ask whether the brand is happy that they’ve hit their targets, from working with them, I think the feedback from brands is that not many influencers, asked those questions, and to be able to like make sure they deliver that return, and the ones that do, stand out. So I think that’s from the influencers standpoint.
I think from the marketers standpoint, then they need to have a benchmark to understand how well they’re doing, you know, on day one, and what good looks like and then to be able to measure the uplift when they’re working with influencers. So they can start translating that into what senior management really care about. And quite often, the benchmark is not done before. So there’s some really good results. But senior management don’t really know what good looks like. And it can’t just be social media metrics. So I think the benchmark is important, I think then be able to get influencer marketing onto the CMO scorecard.
So there’s one metric that can really define the value of influencer marketing, whether that’s reach engagement, brand, share voice, a combination of those, like an influencer index, I think that needs a lot of thought. And I suppose my last point on measurement is it’s really important to connect all of the metrics together.
Challengers in B2B influencer marketing
I know that Christopher Penn talks a lot about this. He’s an analytics expert in the US, I respect hugely in this domain. And I think he’s right that you need to connect a number of metrics together. So you have the initial metrics on social media to show how well the content might have landed. But then you need to connect the metrics, it could be referral site traffic, it could be leads, it could be, then the conversion of those compared to other demand Gen tactics that you have. And to be able to integrate this as a strategy, it has to be connected to the other ways in which you measure things.
So I think that area has a long way to go, I think it’s getting better. But the more results influencer marketing gets, the more visibility, it’ll get on the senior management, the more that the spotlight will shine upon it, the more the return on the campaigns will be asked for by people’s managers, and the more measurement will improve as a result of those questions. So I think it will just take the next years to really enable data and analytics to be at the forefront of this. And, yeah, I am very passionate about data and analytics. So I think there’s multiple different angles. So the people that do influence marketing are not necessarily measurement specialists. I think it’s really challenging area.
Do you measure results?
Mariska: Yeah, this is what I want to say, because we sometimes also struggle that industry experts, as we talked about, are excellent in their job, and they can create excellent content, but they’re not always good in then delivering that data. So it’s also for us sometimes a challenge to push the industry experts to the next level and say, okay, but we need to prove the clients paying for you. So we need to prove that. And that return on investment, what is important for the brand, so, and also for the brand sometimes other perspective, it’s not always easy that we get. And so if you ask: ‘Where do you want to go? When are you satisfied with the outcome? Can you really define it?’.
There also are challenges because what are our referral points? For example, where can we start? So we see there is still also on that point of the ‘bridge to gap’, some brand companies are way ahead, then of course others and also within the industry experts, some people are more better with data. But I think we still say we trying to push our community and industry experts also to put data on the forefront. And to put it also in our brief that, for example, and how can you prove the return on investment of the campaign. So we also added already in the brief. So we know that we asked for the data as soon as possible.
Tim: I think it’s great, just asking for that and and trying to connect it up. I think that’s a great thing to ask. And a lot of people miss it out. I guess it depends if the influencers are getting a ton of business from loads of brands, then the pressure is not on them to always measure those results. If the business is drying up, and they need to prove more of their impact, then it’ll be the first thing that they do. So I think it’ll be a natural shake out of the industry.
But if you don’t measure the results, if your audience is not what the brand is looking for you’ll get found out at some point, it’s not just about you’re having 100 likes from random community, it’s got to drive something valuable for the brand. So yeah, maybe there’s been some social media amplifiers, if you can call some people out there that have pushed around content on the internet, but not too much more. And I think brands are looking beyond that now.
Mariska: Yes, that’s true. We can see in the MICE industry and we used to be a live business and face to face, we push them all into the digital aspect. So, I think, digital marketing in general influencer marketing is now much more on the agenda than ever before
The second season of B2B Influencer Marketing Chat Series
Welcome to the B2B Influencer Marketing Chat Series where we talk about influencer marketing in the world of MICE (Meetings, Incentives, Conferences and Events). We speak with people from all around the globe about the role, the meaning, impact and possibilities of B2B influencer marketing. You can listen to us and our guests on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts.
We launched the next season of our talks in November 2020. Follow us on Eventbrite and sign up for coming chats with influencers, CVB`s representatives and many other interesting guests from the MICE industry and Social Media world.
World of MICE – events on Eventbrite registration.
The Power of B2B influencer Marketing
Founder at Word of MICE & Past-President at MPI Belgium
Mariska Kesteloo
Mariska Kesteloo is an expert in B2B influencer marketing. Her goal is to use social media as a way of adding increased value to events, mostly through micro influencers. In this interview, she tells us the ins and outs of her job.
Exploit the power of social media, create valuable networks and contact the right people to increase visibility of events. Today we talk with Mariska Kesteloo, founder at Word of MICE and B2B influencer marketing expert. She offers us a detailed look at the meetings and events industry from her perspective: marketing and social media. In a frank interview, Mariska shares the lessons she’s learned on her professional journey and this new paradigm of events communications.
Tell us about your career and what drives you in your day to day work.
Ideas are born from frustration, that’s the reason why I started my company. Working as a freelance event professional for years, I visited many tradeshows and exhibitions where I talked with different hotels, venue’s and DMC’s. When I raised the question ‘Why should I organize an event in your hotel, venue or destination?’,often I received an answer like: we have 500 rooms, 10.000 square meters meeting room and we are a four-star property. These are facts and figures I can find online. Isn’t our industry all about creating amazing experiences and connecting the right people? Tell me the story of your hotel, why should I organize my upcoming event in it, and not at the neighbor’s? What is your unique selling point, how do you differentiate yourself from the others, and more importantly, what is your target audience? One size doesn’t fit all! You can’t be an expert in all fields, right? How is it possible that in the Twenty First century we still use the same methods that we’ve been using for the last thirty years, if not more? It’s time for a change!
How did you start working in B2B influencer marketing?
I had been working in the travel industry for more than ten years, with so many active bloggers and vloggers. This made me think: how about we use this medium in our B2B industry? We could use the power of experts, people with a professional experience in our sector, and let them tell their stories in a creative, fun or unique way. It’s always better to be recommended than having to promote yourself. Peer to peer recommendation is extremely powerful. It’s still word of mouth, only that we’re using the online tools called social media.
Testing the idea at IBTM in 2016, I discovered it had potential and, in 2017, I started working full-time. It’s been a huge challenge since then. One little mouse can create a huge impact in your life, so can one micro-influencer, so what if the word was spread by more mice or micro-influencers? That’s when Word of MICE was born!
It’s always better to be recommended than having to promote yourself. Peer to peer recommendation is extremely powerful. It’s word of mouth, only here we’re using the online tools called social media.
What do you find most exciting about being a leader in the meetings and events industry? What are the main challenges you face?
First, I don’t see myself as a leader to be honest. My goal is to inspire others with my knowledge and experiences, to convince them of the added value of influencer marketing, and to use it to its full potential. Our industry is not really ‘early-adaptor minded’ if I was to describe it in marketing terms.
To convince potential clients to invest in influencer marketing is like selling a different mindset. Why? Because the budget that suppliers are spending on exhibitions, folders, flyers, and other activities and events, you want them to invest it in influencer marketing. We are used to doing our sales and promotions in a certain way and I must convince the CFO/CEO to change. That’s a major shift and challenge! It’s a completely different mindset that requires time and lots of patience.
In that sense, I see myself as a disruptor, a change-maker. My drive is to make suppliers more visible in the market by telling their stories through experts and to get in touch with the right target audience.
What would be the best way to dismantle these challenges?
In Dutch we love expressions and the best one to describe it is: If one sheep leaps over the ditch, the rest will follow. The only thing they need is time. As we work on new cases we have more results and it’s easier to convince them from several proven track records. Influencer marketing is not yet common in the B2B market, but it will come, that’s for sure.
Besides, I need to keep my focus, be patient and keep on working hard to continue my mission together with my team. I like challenges, and this is a major one.
Influencer marketing is not yet common in the B2B market, but it will come, that’s for sure.
When measuring the success of an event, which are the most important KPIs to consider?
First, it depends on the strategy of the client. Influencer marketing is a part of the marketing strategy. Do you want to attract a new audience? Do you have a new service or product to sell, or are you opening a new hotel? Do you suffer from a ‘misperception’?
We start from there and investigate the client’s profile, we see what their target audience is. We start with our research, as you can read below in the overview. We set the goals and we follow-up, adjust them and modify them when needed during the campaign. At the end, we collect all the data in a report and we present the full overview.
Tell us 5 tips to pick the perfect influencer for a campaign/supplier.
- Don’t focus on the number of followers but on the quality of their network and your strategy. Therefore, every client has different needs, is looking for a different market, etc. It’s a thorough process to find and to match the right influencer with the client.
- Influencer marketing has endless options, you can measure the impact and adjust it any time you need to.
- Influencers are not those who call your hotel for a free stay and dinner! That’s typical for the B2C market, not in the B2B market.
- The MICE industry is a very particular niche industry and you must be an insider to be, or to become, an influencer. In other words, work only with experts!
- Influencer marketing is a collaboration between the influencer, the client and, in some cases, the agency. Only in this way will the campaign be a success.
Our influencers are not selected based on the size of their communities, but on the quality of their network and published content. Besides, we consider their knowledge, their background, their relationships and their contacts in the industry. It’s an intense process to find and connect with the right person, someone who can create and spread the story of a product or service in an authentic way, and I always tell this to potential clients. We prefer to avoid the word ‘influencer’, as it only creates confusion about their job -it really is! – and their credibility.
So, how does it work?
- Identify needs: we analyze the target audience, preferred channel, timeframe and desired outcomes,
- Scouting & selection: we cast a wide net and we search for beloved personalities and thought leaders in today’s social media platforms from in our database, based on the client’s requirements.
- Briefing: WOM sits down with both customer and influencer(s) to align and coordinate the creative content and brand communication.
- Planning: WOM proposes a communication plan with influencers and a strategy.
- Marketing: the influencer broadcasts branded communication through their channel while WOM follows up closely. During the entire process, we keep our client up to date, delivering insights into the influencer’s performance during each phase.
- Final report: after the influencer’s branded communication comes to an end, we share a final assessment with all available figures.
Which social network do you consider the greatest asset to help spread the word and broadcast an event? What other communications channels do you consider essential?
The world of social media is changing rapidly, and a lot of people get confused when selecting which channel they should use. First, you need to know what social network your current or potential audience is using. Starting from there, you don’t need to maintain all channels. Focus on one or two channels and maintain them, be consistent and professional. That’s already a lot of work.
What advice would you give someone taking their first steps in the meetings and events sector?
Networking is key, this is, getting involved in an association. For me, this has given me the opportunity to get in touch with many people in the international sector. Plus, in the mean time you have access to education. You should also get a mentor. It’s always great to have the knowledge of a senior professional, who can support you in every step of your career. Important: questions which may seem more personal, don’t be afraid to ask them!
Looking towards 2020, where would you like to see innovation within the sector?
If I look towards my business, it would be great if suppliers used the power of social media influencers to share their stories, be visible and be online.
Next, I’m fan of sustainability and diversity in the broad sense of the word. We need to care about our planet, we only have one! I hope we can move towards a more sustainable industry, and innovation plays a huge role here. Also, although many women are working in our industry, the CEOs and GMs are usual men. We need to change that, bring more equality into the entire industry. Working with people with different backgrounds, cultures and experiences is very enriching. Only in this way will we be able to move forward in our industry.
